Yesterday afternoon I was in Leeds shopping with Mrs.Troutfire. There were 3 Mancunians called Shoshin busking in Briggate making a rather pleasant kind of urban sound. I stood and watched for a while, made a donation and took a few pictures. After a while they were approached by an official in a red jacket who told them they had, had complaints about the music being too loud. He also told them that they weren't allowed to have leaflets available to the public or sell CD's.
I felt that I had made my point and that I should test his resolve, I offered to wait for the Police but he didn't really answer me so I walked off.
Whilst all this was happening we were all being filmed by a girl an oriental girl using her mobile phone, no one said a word to her.
What does the PCSO have on his shoulder a camera!
This is the second incident I have had with PCSO's, the first time I was detained for photographing a factory and refusing to give my details.
As a retired officer with 30 years experience I am confident in dealing with these situations but many people aren't. I am baffled by the idea that anyone would think me a terrorist threat. Why would terrorists look for pictures of enforcement officers in newspapers and then target them? Many Police Officers appear in Public relations photographs and to my knowledge none of them have been knobbled by Al Qaeda. I am living testament to that, as a Community Constable I was encouraged to get my photo in the local paper whenever possible.
By the way the band continued to play just as loudly to the apparent approval of many passers by. 2 different PCSO's walked past and 2 Police Officers drove past and didn't say word.
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36 comments:
Absolutely spot on, Bob. Well done, and thanks for pointing this out.
I'm a big fan of street photography, but pathological shyness prevents me from ever taking my own pictures of people. Do you have any advice? Are there guide-lines about this sort of thing? Do you usually get persmission before you snap? Or do you carry cards?
And just where *can* I read about what my rights are as a "citizen photographer"?
@Steeluloid
If you search for photographers rights on Google you will find some good advice. Bear in mind they're not always right.
When it comes to members of the public I just try not to cause offence and be reasonable. Someone once objected to me photographing his friends back!! I declined to delete the picture. On other occasions I have deleted pictures when requested.
Robert
Hi Robert,
I share your fears as well as 32 years in the job. Were you in West Yorkshire?
The only time ive been stopped is in Paris outside some government building near to the place de concorde, which I suppose was fair enough, coz I had a long lens on.
Ive read many stories regarding authority v photographers and the 'i'm a photographer not a terrorist' seems a really good group with lots of info. The common thread to me seems its either street wardens or PCSOs sticking their nebs in......
Keep snapping and good luck,
John Minary
well done for standing your ground!
Tony Fisher
LOL - shouldn't laugh but its a PCSO - when will they learn!
This subject has been a popular thread on the Leeds Flickr group for some time now. If you've not already contributed to this then I suggest you post a link to this there.
What concerns me most is that despite repeated guidances from Senior officers, PCSOs and junior police officers continue to harass and obstruct photographers who go about their hobby/business. This means that either a. the police leaders are not in control of their force, or b. the guidance is for public consumption only and officers/PCSOs are told to ignore it. Whatever the case it is an unacceptable situation which, unfortunately, creates perceptions in the wider public's minds that photographers are terrorists/pedophiles/perverts. Meanwhile, the real terrorists go about their business and have a laugh at our expense.
Hi
Good for you. I'm an ex Police Officer as well. Glad to say I have not yet been hassled which is amazing considering I was in London a few months back. I took photos of the Gherkin, Lloyds Building, Parliament, Millennium Wheel, Tower Bridge, Liverpool Street Tube Station, several shots on the Underground. I saw several Police Officers non gave me grief, in fact I spotted a couple of officers even taking a photo of a Japanese couple with their camera for them. So I guess I was lucky. I am going back to London this Summer, it will be interesting to see if I get hassled. I do carry around Police Powers/My Rights info re the Terrorism Act and I also have a copy of the Home Office Circular in relation to not harassing Photographers in my camera bag, just in case :-)
Simon
This might be of interest to you all.
http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm
Print a copy off and wave it in front of any over-zealous officials.
or point them to this youtube link and ask them to compare THEIR attitude - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y
I am also a retired Police Officer and now professional photographer. I also teach photography and include people and urban landscapes as assignments. What do I teach my students? That photography in a public place is NOT illegal and they can photograph people, buildings, etc from and in a public place. However not everyone is styrong enough to stand up for themselves.
When did the last terrorist use a DSLR, lenses, tripod, camera bag, etc. Oh no, they used a mobile phone. Were they stopped, I don't think so.
Keith Meadley
As long as you don't follow up with a formal complaint this will just keep happening. When they get enough complaints it will eventually sink in.
Sounds like you EX police officers are all the same :-)
Paula
Thanks for posting the warden's photo. The foundation students at Leeds College of Art are told not to photograph people, police and public buildings. This group has now produces the ammunition we needd to challenge this. If students are being lied to as college policy, that needs to be nipped in the bud!
I'll look out for Mr Red, and make sure to tell me friends to take his photo every time we see him.
Great story. Thanks, Bob. And thanks to Guy Cope for the first link - just what I've been looking for (although not been looking very hard, admittedly).
Anyone know how to go about making a complaint if one were necessary?
Also, do we have the right to refuse to provide officers with our details when asked?
I suppose this would be a good start http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/ or a letter to the Chief Constable for that county.
Good work sir.
When will these hobby bobbies read the plod manual before heading off into town!.Thank goodness a site like this.
Imho, this is simply another incident of abuse of being in a power position. Because they *can* :(
"Also, do we have the right to refuse to provide officers with our details when asked?"
Yes. Unless you're driving a car, or already have an ASBO for the kind of thing you're doing at the time, or they're giving you an on-the-spot fine, you do not have to give your name, address, or anything else really. Of course by not doing so, you will tend to wind them up even more of they're being a jobsworth. I tend to give my first name (to enable polite conversation if they want to try that for a change), but it's not a legal requirement.
This might be of interest:
http://tvca.ox4.org/downloads/bust_card.pdf
Excellent
Awesomeness. Thanks Denny. What's the source of that PDF? Does it come from a Government site on legislation, a solicitor, or a Metropolitan Police site? - Just wanted to know how 'official' the information is.
Ha. I just realised something funny: If Mr Red cop (above) hadn't been such an a**hole about the whole thing, his photo probably wouldn't be published on this blog on the net. But because he was such an a**, he got exactly what he didn't want. And now he's "exposed to the terrorist threat". Hahaha. Whatever. What a knob.
The photographers = terrorist thing is utter nonsense when you can buy stuff like this:
http://www.active-spy-shop.co.uk/#/pen-video-camera/4534823341
Looking at your blog I see you take some great photographs, but I'm a little concerned about your picture showing a Marstons sign for "The Railway" couldn't this vital information lead a terrorist to blow up the brewery instead of a train track ?
A robust response to such patent non-sense.
However, what's the story with that little shoulder mounted CCTV camera that the PCSO is wearing?
Do they record their actions and activities onto some device that they carried or does the PCSO-cam beam back live streaming pics and audio straight to PCSO mission control?
Enquiring minds need to know.
With Google Street View, operated by a foreign company - American, getting no official proscription, I wonder at the attitude of the anti-photo brigade, and their lack of common-sense.
M
I'd report it, and tell them to look at the footage from the PCSO's cam so they can reolve his attitude problem and lack of knowledge of the law.
Same thing's been happening in Accrington as well. http://tinyurl.com/ykuljao Looks like a growing trend among the cops, egged on by the Labour government - friends of torturers.
I'm just about to print my next t shirt - "if you don't want me to photograph it, don't put it where I can see it". If people object to being photographed I respect that, it's common courtesy, but it most certainly isn't illegal. Police should recognise that we have our own attitude test - in my world common sense isn't dead.
It would be a wretched shame if people kept seeing Mr. Red and making it known to him that his picture is on the internet, for ever and ever, easily viewable from...Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan etc. If he's really worried about being in the local rag that thought should give him a few nightmares. Which would be a terrible, terrible thing and no-one should enjoy it.
Have the people who control the water supply in UK been adding some nefarious substance to the water consumed by the "authorities" in the UK to make them behave like idiots?
Canada has no such restrictions.
Dave in Edmonton.
Take a look at the Association of Photographers web site. They drawn attention to a move by the Information Commission Office (ICO) to publish "guidelines" concerning photography in public places, because they believe it may infringe people's Data Protection rights. If passed, this would throw another bat of confusion into the works; call it a PCSO's charter if you like ...
Dave in Edmonton - there's no such restriction in the UK either - just jumped up idiots in uniform that think they know otherwise.
As I was making a phone call following the incident I was approached by a
patrolling 'Special Constable' outfitted in a high visibility jacket.
"Excuse me sir could I have a .."
"Thank goodness you are here, that was quick, I was only just ringing you"
"I'm sorry sir?"
"To report my suspicions - I have reported that man there - the one dressed
as a security officer"
"Why were you reporting him?"
"He is suspicious, acting suspiciously - look.."
(At this time the store detective/security guard is standing in the doorway
of a shoe store with his arms folded, watching me and the special policeman)
"..and is that suspicious?"
"I was here in the street, taking photos, and he came out of the shop and
started to shout at me, yelling at me to stop taking photos, that raised my
suspicions"
"Why? were you photographing him?"
"No, not then, I was just taking photos of the street, I did take his photo
when he started harassing me"
"Why?"
"But then I thought - that's weird"
"What do you mean - what is"
"Well look its a SHOE SHOP - or so we might think. BUT if it was just a shoe
shop - why is HE getting so excited - about a flipping SHOE SHOP?"
"Maybe he does not want you to take photographs"
"Of a SHOE SHOP!!? You bet he doesn't - that's suspicious, and look - in the
window it says SUADE SHOES and MOCCASSINS!"
"What do you mean?"
"Well - SUADE should be spelt SUEDE, and MOCCASSINS has just one 'S' not TWO
- its looks more like ASSASIN to me, and if is was just a shoe shop, surely
they would be able to SPELL what they SELL? - there's something not right
there - that's suspicious"
"Are you serious?"
"Then I noticed more - look, the shop has no number on the door, there
should be - there's a law isn't there, or a council thing - all premises
have to have numbers so the postman and the fire brigade, and you, the
police can get to a place quickly? Its just not right - I think there's
something going on"
(At this point the Special Officer is joined by two uniformed police who
have parked alongside and come over to see what is happening. The store
detective also makes his way over to join in.)
Security Guard: "He was taking pictures of the shop"
Continued...
Continuation....
Special Constable "Thank you sir, please go back to the shop and we will see
you shortly"
(Guard returns, half way to shop, then leans against parking meter to watch)
Me: "I told you he was suspicious - look he's wearing shoes.."
Constable "What??"
"He's wearing shoes - look - like that guy, you know the one on the plane
Richard whatever, Richard Reeves (actually Richard Reid - ed.) the shoe
bomber - he was wearing shoes"
"Sir, we are all wearing shoes - how does that make HIM suspicious, YOU are
the only one with a camera ?"
"Did you see his watch - his watch! It said half past THREE! - its half ten
here - his watch is on some other time zone, and look at the uniform, its
not his size - look at the trousers - that's not his outfit - I bet, or full
of bombs or something, like that other guy on the plane, Omar wassisname"
"Sir, I think you might be over reacting - I think he wanted you to stop
taking photos of his shop"
"I don't think its HIS shop, and anyway, if there's nothing going on in the
'shoe shop' why the fuss - I am not stopping him taking photos of me! I've
got nothing to hide!"
"He wasn't was photographing you - was he? - HE isn't?" (constable points at
my camera)
"Yes he is, and STILL is doing, they are taking photos if me right now, and
you and your colleagues, all of us, all the time you haver been here, look
there in the shop - on the ceiling - that's a dome full of cameras - he's
taking my photo right now - that's suspicious"..."I think you should take a
look into that shop, there's something going on, they're making crack
cocaine in the back, or all the shoes are knock-offs or its a brothel or
money laundering or a bomb factory upstairs or something, look, in the
window upstairs - they're all looking down at us right now..."
Sounds like the PSCO was doing Red's business for him...also by law, neither have the powers of arrest?? Am I correct?
Well done Bob...well played
I was there mate, listening to the racket, and I saw you stick your camera right into the officers face (right into his space).
I thought what an ignorant arrogant pig you were.
Your story above is a load of crap and considering you say you were an officer yourself for thirty years, I reckon you must be losing the plot, you must know the officers were just doing their job and the noise was too loud.
Seems to me you are just a publicity seeker.
I was there,and you are a bull******.
GET A LIFE!
Well done Bob.
Martin, you seem to miss the main pointm which is the dangerous attitudes of the petty official. Take them a bit further and you get situations like Zeitoun found himself in:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/11/dave-eggers-zeitoun-hurricane-katrina
Andy
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